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Ohmz

3:33 AM on 13 May, 2009

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So exactly what should the punishment be for people who obtain illegal media through the Internet?

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Will

3:44 AM on 13 May, 2009

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but quite what business it is of a national government I have no idea whatsoever...

any loss of income = loss of tax...governments love tax. It also means loss of jobs at French-equivalent of HMV which also means loss of tax.

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Gordon394

4:34 AM on 13 May, 2009

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@Ohmz - Quite simply, none. What is the point? It would have to fine/disconnect hundreds of millions of people - this simply isn't feasible.

It is up to the music and movie industries to come up with a better distribution method for their product. They are hugely fortunate that people will always desire their product so they will forever have a captive market called THE PLANET. Consequently, it is up to them to work out a way to tap into it responsibly.

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Gordon394

4:45 AM on 13 May, 2009

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@Ohmz - PS it's also important to make a further point: it is impossible to tell which users download copyright content to trial it before purchase, though studies suggest it to be a significant number. Remember only the UK has open access to something like Spotify which even then remains largely unknown.

As a result, if what these trial-before-buy users are doing is a lesser crime, but one that cannot be distinguished, then all blanket prosecutions fall down.

The music industry needs to see those who download copyright material not as criminals to go after, but as a vast yet untapped market. The industry made record profits last year, just think how successful they could be if they can create a model that appeals to this huge segment. It's an exciting prospect with great incentive and one with far more potential financial gain than suing soccer moms for their children's actions.

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gettinhigh

7:45 AM on 13 May, 2009

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What about the loss of revenue ISPs will have to take after disconnecting millions of people?

Music industry is just crying foul because suddenly their executives are seeing their millionaire status at threat. Yeah they ripped people off for years by promoting crappy music, talentless performers and not to mention shitty re-worked compilations and trying to sell them for a premium.

Common people are just fighting back. You get what you give.

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Martin Wainika

8:45 AM on 13 May, 2009

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Something has to be done about this, what the answer is i don't know.

If i stole a cd from a record shop i would expect to be punished (caught on cctv etc), if i download an album of a torrent site i won't get punished because nobody can prove it was me.

@Gordon - your argument about a child not being able to complete a school report because a parent is illegally downloading is wrong. If a parent does anything wrong the child is affected, if they stole a cd or several cd's from a record store they would expect to be fined or go to prison (if excessive) and the child would be affected by this. It's called responsible parenting

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Shugy

8:54 AM on 13 May, 2009

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I'm assuming that by 'caught' we're not talking about a nice safe legal conviction, rather a direct accusation by the copyright owner based on some extremely tenuous evidence that they provide? In which case, can we all have our own private legal enforcement? Bagsy the DVLA...

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Gnormie

10:05 AM on 13 May, 2009

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@ Martin Wainika

The difference is that someone has paid for the physical media for that CD, for the shopkeepers wages, for the rent/electricity/water supply of the store. In a torrent there is no cost to the original producer, in fact their costs have probably already been met as the original purchase was probably a CD or some such. All the bandwidth costs, costs of maintaining the torrent are shouldered by the users so no argument can be made for lost profit.

The other lie the music industry is hurling around is that 1 pirate download = 1 lost sale, they've said it in court and the utter stupidity of this sentence makes me want to go hit them with a large fish. On top of that decent studies have shown that pirates are in fact more likely to buy music legitimately then others and that they regularly purchase more. (Other studies have shown that pirates buy nothing and that the industry loses billions of pounds to piracy but these are all exclusively funded by the RIAA, most if not all non-bias studies find the opposite is true).

I say keep on pirating, the music/video industry has a dying business model on their hands and they do not wish to admit it because then their talentless CEO's might have to retire to their mansions and have to make do with 4 full time staff. These industries have repeatedly ignored the rights of consumers and used their legal clout to put it into law more often then not, and they even screw over the artists they claim to be protecting as barely anything from CD sales ever makes it into the artists pocket (As shown by the new US lobby group of artists that actually demands the opposite of the RIAA, while the RIAA continues to claim it wants to protect the artists).

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TheEvilGenius

10:25 AM on 13 May, 2009

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@Gnormie: I'm a bit confused by your argument there. You claim that by downloading a CD that someone else has already bought "no argument can be made for lost profit". But if Bob buys a CD and I download it off him instead of BUYING said CD, then the record label has lost out on one sale. Mine.

Hypothetically speaking if Bob brought one CD and everyone in the world downloaded it off him, the record label would only have the profit of that one CD and would have lost billions of potential profit because no one else brought it, which I believe is what the record labels' argument is: Loss of potential sales.

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Ed

10:37 AM on 13 May, 2009

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It always makes me laugh reading about peoples opinions on this subject. Here's my various counters and other additions to the discussion.

1. Yes the French ruling is stupid but ONLY for the reason that it is infeasible. In principle there's nothing wrong with it. Fundamentally you are breaking the law, no matter which way you spin it.

2. While a lot of people do use illegal downloads as a try before you buy service, just as many people don't. There is a whole generation of children that have grown up thinking of music downloads as the norm. Quite simply, unless you have a vested interest, most people will get something for free if its just as easy as buying it.

3. The idea that the music industry is wholly horribly corrupt and screws over the artist is such a misnomer. By all means, yes, record labels suck up a lot of the revenue made by album sales and the like and they can put undue strain on artists to pump out albums more regularly than they feel comfortable with (and, yes, some of them are just sods). However, there's two things to consider. If the artist had been sensible when signing their contract they should have seen potential pitfalls in keeping up with album demand etc. Also, the label has to risk significant amounts of up front money when signing new bands. With only so many bands ever hitting the big time these costs have to be offset. Not to mention worldwide promotion and distribution is very costly. Yes, you can do the whole thing on your own but most people simply don't have the expertise or resources and the process is much slower.

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Ed

10:40 AM on 13 May, 2009

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@TheEvilGenius: I think the point Gnormie is making is that if Bob's friends hadn't been able to get the music for free off him, they simply wouldn't have bothered at all. Thus there's no actual lost sale. It's an argument that holds a lot of weight but still doesn't really excuse it.

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Gnormie

10:59 AM on 13 May, 2009

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@ Ed

I'm not saying it excuses it, it just makes the line that much more indistinguishable.

I realize my last post may have made me out to be quite a bit of a pirate. Which I freely admit, however I would like to clarify that position. I'm not a pirate at heart, I now listen to music on my computer exclusively from Spotify and am happy to listen to any ads they throw my way because that's how they're making their money, and most of the music on my S9 is music ripped from legitimately bought CD's (though not all). I also no longer download TV shows made available by the BBC/Channel 4/Channel 5 as there's no need to because most of the time it's available on the VOD services for free and I'm usually even willing to pay the small fees of 4OD to watch movies as it's quicker then downloading them. I also buy a lot of DVD's (there's at least 150+ under my TV), and I usually spend a lot of time ripping these DVD's to my PC so I can watch them on the go (I DO NOT want to carry around a CD case of 10+ movies/TV series just to keep me entertained over a few weeks in scotland). I have never uploaded a torrent, and that is something I will probably never do. However in the eyes of the industry I am a pirate, because I broke the encryption on my DVD's so I could watch them later without having to carry around any unneeded baggage of a CD case. I still download a bit of music, because I like to listen to music on the go and thus far spotify doesn't offer that and I don't have an unlimited amount of spare cash to throw towards CD's (though I still buy a lot more then any of my more 'moral' non-pirate friends). I also download quite a few US TV shows, such as Grey's Anatomy/Scrubs/House because although they're available in the UK, we are several series behind and there's no way to legitimately watch these shows without paying through the nose, and since Hulu is locked to the UK without a proxy bit torrent is my last option.

I'm not a pirate at heart, I'm willing to put up with advertisements, pay for DVD's/CD's when I have the money to spare and actively encourage friends who pirate to turn to services like Spotify. I'm a pirate because the media I want to watch hasn't been made available for a fair price, and the media I do legitimately own, I'm restricted in how I use it, something which you don't get with pirate copies. The industry is hurting legitimate consumers by trying to defeat the pirates, now excuse me while I go watch episode 24 of season 5 of house that I just downloaded, because it isn't available in the UK and probably won't be aired by Channel 5 for 6 months +

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Bry

11:10 AM on 13 May, 2009

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Can someone explain to me just how it is possible for the French to be allowed to pass this law?

My understanding is that the Eu have voted against this meaning that if France does actually implement this they will be against Eu law and they will be able to appeal to the Eu who will overturn the decision and/or fine france?

So how are they even able to go about this?

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scotw

11:39 AM on 13 May, 2009

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Aren't they missing the boat a little ? Studys have shown that people (generally) want to stay on the right side of the law. They'd rather pay for a legal, assured quality download than a dodgy, illegal torrent. The only reason that downloading gained momentum is that the music companies first of all did not want it, then tried to use it to control our usage and milk us for more money with DRM.

Now that we have lots of excellent DRM-free sites, they are growing faster than torrents. Sure, students and others will download for free, but that just replaces taping off the radio that we all did before (yes, I am that old).

The film industry is facing the same issue and the answer is the same, make material available at reasonable cost, DRM-free, quickly and easily and people will flock to buy it.

Lastly, the issue I have with all of this is the punishment must be proportional, if you steal a £7.99 album, your punishment should be the same as if you stole a physical CD, not huge fines, prison or Internet disconnection.

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smc8788

12:06 PM on 13 May, 2009

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@ scotw - The difference is, when you steal a CD from a store you are tried and punished under criminal law, hence the fines are less but there is a chance of a prison sentence. Any action taken against you my music/movie/video game companies or associations is a civil claim, hence fines are generally much larger, but if found guilty there is no chance of a prison sentence or aquiring a criminal record.

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Gordon394

12:16 PM on 13 May, 2009

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I heard the argument about 'piracy' put to me in an interesting way the other day.

Unlike traditional piracy there is no holding people hostage, unlike traditional theft there is no physical removal of material. Essentially downloading copyright material is like having found a way not to take a car from a showroom but to have discovered a way to perfectly clone it from the other side of the street and drive off.

Again, there are simply far, far, far too many people who download copyright material for even 0.1% of them to be caught. They must be seen as a gigantic untapped revenue sector and new and innovative distribution models discovered to monetise them as a whole. Some people will always want content for free, nothing can be done there but I truly believe the majority would prefer to stay on the right side of the law should a viable alternative (in their eyes) be found.

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scotw

12:20 PM on 13 May, 2009

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@smc Digital theft is still a crime and can be tried in a criminal court. The music companies have been pushing for tougher laws and using civil courts to hit people with totally dis-proportional punishments for what is a rather minor crime, our polititians should not be supporting that.

A £7.99 theft should not ever result in massive fines or prison time, this isn't the dark ages. But it hasn't been about that, it's been about controlling the consumer.

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haim

12:52 PM on 13 May, 2009

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Incidentally, if anyone works out a way to clone a car I'd love to hear from you.

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rav

3:18 PM on 13 May, 2009

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Pretty much totally agree with what you Gnormie said.

I've got a few hundred DVDs on my book shelves but it's easier to download a divx then rip the bloody things for my personal use given I can't be bothered to circumvent the DRM. I also don't feel very guilty downloading a show like 24 to watch it early given that I've bought every season for myself and quite a few more as presents for others. The film industry needs to learn from the labels. They messed around for ages but are finally are starting to understand and sell us the products we want and not restricting how we can use them.

Saying that I do prefer buying physical media whenever I can. I bought my first download album the other day and although the price was great it wasn't the same not having an actual disk and cover sleeve to go with it. It the same reason I buy books when I could easily go to the library and read them free.

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Steve32

4:04 PM on 13 May, 2009

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@ravmania, I agree too. I also download things like 24 to watch. I don't feel quilty as I pay for Sky HD so I can watch the same thing there if I want. It is just more convenient for me to download it in HD and stream it to my PS3 (Yes, I know I can Sky+ it, but there the Sky HD box fills up way to quick when recording HD content. I could go on...). If I was prosecuted for this it would actually cost the industry money as I can tell you I would cancel my Sky contract in a flash!

At the end of the day, until the industry gives consumers what they want and the freedom to watch it on our own terms I don't see how this problem will go away.

Of course the French solution is completely ridiculous!

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chrism 1

4:25 PM on 13 May, 2009

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@Gordon - That's great for the person cloning the car, but what about the people who made the car that was cloned? How about all the work that went into R&D, design, testing, manufacturing, advertising? They don't get a penny.

People like to bring up the argument that it's ok to take something for free because it's not a physical object, when in fact the value of the thing in question is in the experience, whether it's watching a movie, playing a game or listening to music.

At least be honest with yourself rather than making excuses - it's great to be able to get something for nothing.

Yes, I doubt that # of downloads equals # of lost sales, but I wonder how many of the people who download content and enjoy it are then prompted to go and buy spend money on something they already have?

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Gnormie

5:03 PM on 13 May, 2009

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@ Chrism

But remember that only a certain amount of people clone the car, many still go buy the original, which covers those costs and if the original maker made a huge profit does it still matter that there are clones out there? The Wolverine movie is a perfect example of this, a workprint of pretty much the entire movie sans special effects was pre released, now if piracy had the absolutely catastrophic effect that the industry claims, why did this movie gross $210 million worldwide? (Not a bad income considering that the film was received rather badly by critics). For a movie of the type it made an incredible amount of money despite the workprint and the bad reviews, so the industry really can't claim that piracy hurt sales (in fact there are a few arguments to be made that the workprint increased sales), though I have no doubt they would have had no scruples doing so if the film grossed rather badly.

As a small addendum to this I didn't pirate the movie and went to watch it in the theater instead to get the 'full experience'. One of the worst decisions I've ever made as the movie was utter crap, and the workprint could have told me that for free.

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chrism 1

5:37 PM on 13 May, 2009

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@Gnormie - I'm arguing that the principle is wrong, which is that it's okay to take something for free that you would otherwise have to pay for. This doesn't change just because a work breaks even or turns a profit, although I'm sure it makes it easier to justify downloading in the minds of people who would do so regardless.

As for this law, I can see ISPs being reluctant to cut off the source of their income. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out anyway.

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rav

9:24 PM on 13 May, 2009

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Sounds like a good way to get out of a fixed term broadband contract though!

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Chocoa

9:46 PM on 13 May, 2009

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Ducking between the mud pies for a moment.. :-)

A few alternate points I hope:

If the music industry was not so HUGELY profitable no one would be griping in it about the situation i.e. their loss of perceived profit. They had become complacent about their market place and continuous profit from an old world business model; They had not seen what was coming and planned accordingly. The corporate trousers have been pulled well down by the internet and sharing technologies. Who's fault is that? - Not the consumers, for 'we' will always grasp opportunities. If they (music industry et al) can't stand the heat then they should get out of the kitchen - E.g., As Pioneer has demonstrated with Kuro in the Plasma market. -Prudent planning but sad.

The French law will be a good bench experiment about what happens. In some ways its needed, to demonstrate to world and either side of the argument the various consequences of the music industries lusting for such laws. - A law that penalises the buyer and 'illegal' downloader; many of whom are the same person - Not discrete individuals.

ALL business / industry face risk in the market place - The major Foot & Mouth Crisis cost me £500,000 as a very small family business ( that is home everything - gone) its what you gamble for profit in life and business. Its the risk I took in starting and loosing a business. I have to deal with loss and plan ahead, not continuously gripe like the music industry is. I wish the record moguls could get hold of the facts of business life and realise they are no King Canute's! - Examine how its all gone pear shaped and plan for the future, not look backward and rub their hands with lame historical avarice.

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smeghead

10:19 PM on 13 May, 2009

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@ravmania - As far as I understand it, if you get cut off due to the three strikes and out policy you still have to pay for the remaining months according to your contract. So you can't get out of it that way!

Fingers crossed the UK doesn't adopt this mad policy, but knowing our politicians they'd bend over backwards and take it for the pleasure of the music/film industry.

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Gnormie

11:55 PM on 13 May, 2009

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@ Chrism

I'm not arguing that piracy is right, just that there are legitimate reasons for it. If legal (and fairly priced) alternatives were offered I'd happily snap them up, but thus far a lot of content I would like to see is deliberately being made difficult to get at by the industry because it might affect their margins, so I either have the option of paying 500% of the worth of the product for a limited viewing/restricted copy of the product, or there's torrents...

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stripy

12:32 AM on 14 May, 2009

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@ Chocoa - You make some very good points and i agree with you about them getting out of the market place if they don't like it. Ultimately i wouldn't miss them one bit. I've always preferred going to see bands play live anyway and although i do listen to music at home i rarely feel the need to add much to my music collection these days. I don't much like the argument about record companies losing money promoting bands that fail to make it big so need to make extra bundles on the ones that do but then i just dislike the whole industry setup and don't see why we need record companies at all anymore. At the end of the day people in bands like playing gigs and writing songs and musicians won't all suddenly disappear of the face of the earth if there weren't fat, bmw driving, men in suits telling them what to do and earning massive profits.

And for the record i don't download music illegally but i have no problem with anyone who does.

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lifethroughalens

2:23 AM on 14 May, 2009

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Well said Chocoa.

Sorry to hear of your misfortune, I hope happier & more prosperous times lay ahead. Your point, so poignantly put, is one I whole heartedly agree with.

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Gordon394

2:53 AM on 14 May, 2009

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Just a quick note to say fantastic discussion everyone. Superb points and counter points with no sign of mud throwing on what is a very controversial topic. What wonderful readers you are ;)

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Gnormie

6:20 PM on 14 May, 2009

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@ Gordon

I think it's the subject matter, as it has never really been cleared up in a court of law and is one of those situations where the major record labels/lobby groups are obviously wrong in how they're going about protecting their work (well the artists work :P ). But the group diametrically opposed (the pirates) obviously are going about it the wrong way too, as they are just giving the lobby groups a reason to carry on litigation.

The best solution to making the industries realize they have a dying business model would be to stop purchasing things that you don't think are fairly priced or have been restricted in how you use them. And when their margins begin to fall simply because they can't force people by law to buy their products they might adapt. The problem is people want to consume and the stop buying it method would take years to work, and people get bored and find other ways to get a hold of content they want (me included :P ).

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Chocoa

8:28 PM on 14 May, 2009

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@ lifethroughalens

Thanks for the kind words. I felt embarrassed mentioning my situation here, but thought it relevant to the topic of business and short-sighted fat cats. (no pun intended with your user name!)

@Gordon

Thank you for providing the open forum to discuss technology in its broadest terms.

OK, mutual back patting over, back to the cream cake fight!

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RD

3:37 AM on 18 May, 2009

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One should remember that most entertainment is eventually broadcast freely, and can be recorded at that time. What 'the industry' needs to learn to protect is their 'value-added' extras, and premium quality. Free broadcasts/recordings may be of lesser quality... but no one stops anyone from recording radio/television/cable (although some try, in some venues). We've had the ability to freely take audio/video from broadcasts for decades... and to freely make copies of content for our personal use, in any way/gadget we wanted... before DRM. What needs to be regulated is mass distribution... not individual copying. If I buy an offering, I'll copy it to any/all gadgets that I want to 'consume' it on... I may even share it with friends... but I generally don't provide the whole neighborhood (or the world) with copies. Sharing helps generate sales, mass distribution replaces sales. The industry should recognize the relative value and not try to deal in absolutes... (as in absolutely no sharing even a single time). The industry also needs to recognize and pass on to consumers, the cost savings in electronic distribution and promotion... it's their foolish insistence on maintaining old pricing structures, protecting their niche and profit margins, that have people rebelling. I wish the artists would just create their own distribution organization... rebel against 'the industry' ...and receive a greater percentage of the profit which is their due. Many artists receive more profit from touring, many new artists could get their performances out there on the 'net electronically when they can't tour. The 'middle men' are fighting tooth and claw for old profits, and control.

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RD

3:41 AM on 18 May, 2009

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I think an appropriate piracy penalty is some multiple of the purchase price... without criminalization. The access account is charged the piracy fee... and that guarantees the account owners' attention to prevent abuse... whether it's securing their connection from illegal drive-by access, or policing their own family members.

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