HTC Touch Pro2 Smartphone Comments

Nice! WM6 still bothers me but I'm tempted :-)

Few things...

1) The TP2 has faster RAM/ROM ICs making general performance better. It's not the "Same as the old one"
2) So the device loses a point because it doesn't have a 3.5mm headphone jack? IT'S A BUSINESS DEVICE. WHO CARES?
3) WM is by far the most advanced mobile OS out there. You complain about WM "playing catchup" and then Apple release an update with copy and paste. Oh wow. I've had that for 10 years. Who's playing catchup when that happens?
4) "Limitations of the OS" what does WM restrict you from doing then?
4) "HTC continues to separate cameras between the Diamonds and Pros". This is the first time that's happened actually, and again, it's a business device. Go buy a camera if you want amazing pictures!

Interesting review. I have the HTC Touch Pro (v1) and it is without doubt the very worst phone / PDA I have ever owned; and the most expensive. (In fact all users at work share the same view!)This is a "work" phone, and it pales into insignificance when compared to my own Nokia E71, which simply blows it away. So, thanks Gordon, but I'll give this a very wide berth! Once bitten ... etc!

will the real gordon kelly please stand up! ;-)

great review Gordon. shame you don't do more.

As with all these phones (I have the Touch Pro) they need a custom ROM from XDA developers before they become anywhere near being useful. @PaulW, I thought the same until I flashed mine and it was like a new phone afterwards.

I'm surprised Gordon didn't test and mention the much hyped 'conference speaker phone' option built into this phone. HTC market this as the 'killer feature' and it would be nice to know whether it's up to their marketing hype or not.

Attention Admin - please delete last comment to Ed Churchward - PC crashed while I was typing it.

This is my comment:-

@Ed Churchward - had a look on XDA Developers - did you get the ROM software for the Raphael device? Cheers.

In the "who's who of tech specs" I was expecting to see FM radio - but its not mentioned here... It was trailed as part of the lineup when it was previewed earlier in the Spring - has it been ditched?

@PaulW Yes, that is the one. Have a look at the roms in the rom development section. I like the Proven ones by qsqa but there are lots of good ones there. The best bit is it brings the new interface from the Touch Pro 2 which is much imporved, especially with all the contextual menus. Have a play and experiment with different roms and Radio's. Just read the Wiki and FAQ, it is very simple to upgrade once Hard spl is installed.

Also make sure you install MyPhone so restoring Texts and stuff is very easy.

@Oliver:

One huge limitation of the WM OS is that it's only compatible with resistive touch screens.

Pity HTC hasn't taken the form-factor and put Android on it. Even with HTC's efforts, Windows Mobile is one butt-ugly OS, I really don't want to be reminded about Win3.1 that often!

@pimlicosound - "One huge limitation of the WM OS is that it's only compatible with resistive touch screens."

So that can't change in the future?

ANDROID.

I have spoken :]

@Oliver...I'm with you in thinking that the WM OS is far superior than any of the current alternatives and HTC have simply refined it further. There is just no point trying to argue for WM in these forums as the majority are so anti-microsoft or Apple brainwashed or both!! I can't remember any review for a WM device, however good it was not finishing with the words 'if only it had.....(any other OS)

500 quid on this?

No thanks 450 on the iPhone 3g SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS for the win!

@ Ataripower
I assure you, there's no need to be anti-microsoft OR 'Apple brainwashed' to dislike WM - it's very easy without being either.

Hey there everyone...

Err... I actually have this device now (passed on my Omnia to my younger brother)and of course I won't be comparing this phone to any other handset since there are handsets out there with even better hardware than this, especially cameras with much higher pixel count and HD video recording and stuff. It's all about what I need and what I like. Before the Omnia I had a TyTN II but gave the touch keyboard a try and found it to be useless for me (And yes I got every kind of onscreen keyboard on there). So had to get this one.

Is Windows Mobile really that bad? C'mon people... I mean... really?
Has Windows Mobile been ever been about 'Ease of Use'? There was a time when Palm OS was considered to be the ultimate user friendly, snappy and fast OS (Yes! before WebOS) while WM was always the choice of enthusiasts and modders outside the corporate world just like PC enthusiasts.
WM is THE most customizable OS in the world. Can get anything done... Yeah! Copy & Paste may not be THAT important according to Ed but Apple do care and did bang on about this inclusion in 3.0
Tethering is something I've been doing for years. iPhone is getting it... what... now?
I can watch movies on this thing no matter what file type... Yeah I do like watching movies on a 3" something screen and don't like or bother/need to convert every single file made/obtained outside iTunes. Multi-tasking, custom themes, endless software support, editing Office documents... the list goes on and on. Only thing is you just have to know what you're doing. Just like a PC you have to actually work for it but the experience is rewarding while Mac just works out of the box but your choice is very limited about what should work which is fascist anyway.
Deciding which mobile platform is the best is like deciding which religion is the stairway to heaven(Church of Mormons... maybe). Everyone's picked sides already and they all have their arguments. Symbian always gets away with it but some implementations (N95, N96) crash so often without the evil plans of Dr. Neo Cortex. Android is the new Barcelona FC. Like everyone's favorite second team, just about everyone likes to swear by it whether or not having actually used it. So this debate is going nowhere soon enough...
Moral of the story is Windows Mobile rocks!!

And Gordon! although this was a good review, did you throw up after like that gay guy in 'Ugly Betty' after he kissed a girl while he had to show he was straight(in your case, impartial)?

@Ataripower: surprised they let that comment through.

Windows Mobile will support capacitive screens if OEMs write drivers for it. That doesn't mean multi-touch is supported though.

I have a Diamond sat in front of me here. It quite clearly says "3.2mp" as does a friends Raphael. There is no difference there.

The RAM in the Pro2 and Diamond2 has a very noticable performance impact. Think of it as replacing an IDE HDD with a SATA SSD.

"Limitations of the OS in terms of ease of use." That's not really a limitation. I personally find WM a much more friendly OS because everything you can do on a desktop OS is handled similarly on the device. That's not a limitation, that's a "you've been brainwashed/bribed".

Also, since I've already ported WM6.5 to the Topaz, I should get 6.5 working on the TP2 as soon as HardSPL is out (I'm l3v5y at xda-devs if anyone is wondering).

To all those who seem confused about WM and why there are so many who consider it outdated it's got nothing to do with being anti-microsoft. The simple fact of the matter is that WM was NEVER a great mobile OS. Oh it's powerful enough and there's a tremendous amount of flexibility but it was always a cludge of desktop computer design shrunk down to fit a mobile device. I'm saying that after having four of five WM devices from the original Orange SPV through a HTC Universal and a Touch HD. It sort of works but getting to functions takes far too long, the need to resort to a stylus on the touch scren devices is a pain in the backside and it's extremely unfriendly to the non-technical user.

What Apple did in 2007 was show the entire mobile industry how to do a touch screen interface correctly. It moved the whole market on in the same way the original RAZR did for hardware design. Android and WebOS have now provided new alternatives, Symbian is getting closer slowly but surely, Apple have continued to refine Mobile OS X and even Microsoft seem to have a chance at getting it right with WM 7. WM 6.1 in comparision is as dated as Windows 3.1 is to Windows 7. Sorry, but that's just the harsh reality. The only reason it's hanging on as well as it is is the existing business user base and applications.

Look... I think we're all missing the important question here:

Will it run Minesweeper?

Right, the iPhone OS is nice to use. It does what it does quite well. But for anything other than picking up the odd email, browsing the web, and being an MP3 player, it's utterly awful/can't do it/never will do it. It's taken three iterations for copy and paste! For that reason, it's not a smartphone. It's not at the cutting edge of technology, it's not something you can't live without. It's like taping an iPod to a five year old Nokia.

Windows Mobile on the other hand contains an enormous ammount of functionality, and a technically far better OS, at the expense of some of the graphical effects of the iPhone. That doesn't make the iPhone better at all!

Can I ask a question? Yes.
I've never used WM 6.1, to me it's always sounded like something I'd like. I like power, I like to tinker, I don't like to be locked down. Once 6.5 is out and with TouchFlo, TouchWiz and all the other skins out there is it really that bad? Surely those skins mask the main problem you have with WM Ed? They provide a simple interface to the basic functions. You can then dig deeper if you want more (albeit in a clunky interface). I think most people want the power of a computer in their phone, they think they're getting that with an iPhone or whatever, but in reality it's got a lot less features than most WM phones.

So, I've been wanting a new phone for over 6 months. But every phone seems like a compromise. I'm fed up checking TR every day and not seeing something that just makes me go "yes". I want something good for music, a decent camera (with flash for drunken night shots!), something easy to bash out texts or emails and the ability to browse the web comfortably. I'd like a radio, but that's not 100% essential. I don't care about GPS, games or anything else really. Someone just tell me what to get! Thank you. :)

I've stopped sticking up for WinMo here. I like it and it works for me and I don't need everyone else to like it.

I can also totally see where the iPhone just hands down beats WinMo. It so much easier to use and the UI is fantastic. The two main reasons I won't go for an iPhone are the lockdown and the price. I love being able to do what I want with my device and resent Apple deciding for me. Most high end WinMo phones can be had fairly cheaply on a decent contract and when I take out an 18 month contract I refuse to pay through the nose for a handset.

I can't wait for WinMo 7 and really hope MS learn all the (many) lessons they need to from Apple. For now I've stopped buying WinMo phone's because they've barely moved on in the 5 years I've used them and I'm not paying for a hardware upgrade any more when nothing really new is brought to the table. I'm happy enough with a new cooked ROM every now and then. MS aren't getting any more of my money until they earn it.

@Gordon
Totally agree about not being loyal to a company. They're not your friends, they're only after your cash. Sounds so obvious but people seem to forget.

@Gordon: Check XDA-Devs. Custom OS images anyone?

"the multimedia ... integration" What, it has a music player, and a video player? Windows Media Player for mobile?

"maps integration" Why bother integrating when it's crap? TomTom is far better than GoogleMaps and has been about for centuries. And there's always GoogleMaps for WM, which is free, and can be installed without a precious little AppStore.

"messaging, email" It's hardly great at messaging if it can't do MMS is it?

"third party applications (App Store)" which have to get looked at with a fine toothed comb before being allowed into the real world? On WM, I can (with a few lines of native code) write an application to do just about anything, and then get it out to devices without anyone decompiling it and checking if I'm using "unauthorised APIs", or link to someone bashing Apple. I can code what I like! And besides, on all the freeware I've used for WM, I've never had in application adverts. From a technical point of view, the iPhone SDK is far more similar to programming with .Net CF than to native code (i.e. it's buggy, crap, slow as hell and limited). Sure you can write stuff in native code, but then it's publishable officially, and so what's the point in the AppStore?

@Ed and Gordon: Perhaps on reflection my comments were a little harsh but Ed I can assure you I have been a reader on your excellent site for a number of years but have just grown more and more frustrated by the complete bias against WM products and the apparent and often unjustified awe for anything Apple (however average it really is). I'm sure youwill point out the odd exception to this but overall this is the case.

WM is certainly not perfect or without its flaws but overall it does represent the most complete system and its only getting better.

You state that there is no point being loyal to a particular company and that as a reviewer you must remain impartial, but I must say that sometimes (certainly not always) that Microsoft distain comes out.....

By the way I have a Nokia N96 at the moment purely because I like it and am certainly not 'loyal' to WM in any way although I think its an excellent OS and HTC have integrated it fantastically

@Gordon
There are various things Apple limit you from doing. Examples of which are:

1 Locked to O2
I can use MY phone on whichever network I like. I'm off on holiday this weekend and just got a Vodafone sim to use Passport. Apple actively try to stop you from unlocking YOUR phone and even resort to bricking.

2 Codecs
You're limited to certain media formats, no WMA, WMV, divx. I want to use whatever media files I want and I defintely don't want to have to buy my video from iTunes.

3 No subscription music services
Good or bad what's wrong with the choice.

5 No flash Support
Used Skyfire on my Diamond the other day to watch Federer win the French Open while sitting in the library. The quality wasn't amazing but I got to watch it live.

6 Limited to WiFi
And I streamed the video over 3G. With the iPhone you're often limited to only using WiFi. For example with iPlayer and with Skype.


6 No customisation
One of WinMo's best features is the today screen, an app launcher screen doesn't compare in usefulness or functionality. And you're stuck with a qwerty software keyboard. I much prefer t9. What's wrong with the choice?

8 Limited to Apps that Apple approves
I can install anything I like.

9 Change my own battery
Yes I do have multiple batteries

Loads of things have actually been fixed like A2DP, exchange, copy paste, mms. But Apple just can't help themselves locking things down. Why couldn't they have been there from the start? They're not even advanced features which are difficult to implement.

I know I shouldn't feed the troll but what the heck...

@Oliver - you may need to update your standard portfolio of iPhone-bashing cue-cards.

1) Please point me to ANY media player that does a better job than the iPhone / iPod Touch? No, that doesn't mean 'give me a list of stuff that supports more codecs' because 90%+ of the public doesn't give a damn about that, show me an app that makes it easier and more enjoyable to access and playback your media on the device, not to mention buying and downloading new material on the device.

2) TomTom better than GoogleMaps you say? Good job it's coming to the iPhone platform then...

3) MMS? All iPhones can do that as of today with the 3.0 update (assuming carrier support of course).

4) Third party apps on iPhone are a massive success and the app store is being copied by everyone from Android and WebOS through Nokia and on to Windows Mobile. Not sure what you're babbling about with regards the SDK as that really doesn't affect the handset at all and many, many other developers are using it to great effect (and not complaining about it I'd point out).

Oh, also, if you have to roll a Custom OS image to your handset to get it to work properly, guess what? It DOESN"T WORK PROPERLY! Come on now, handsets have moved on since the initial Smartphone concepts and the people buying them are (thank GOD!) not just geeks anymore. I genunely hope that Microsoft sort out Windows Mobile sometime soon but if they can't get WM7 out the door sometime in the next few months they're in for a world of hurt if they find themselves facing three (or more) competing OS's that are well established in the marketplace.

Now, seriously, why do people staple their colours to the mast of one product come hell or high water? As Gordon said earlier, go with whatever is best for your needs at time of purchase but make an HONEST assesment of products in the marketplace rather than just bashing out of habbit.

@Ravmania: I think you sum up perfectly in your last post regarding the well known and frankly laughable flaws with the iphone but the fact of the matter is most iphone users seem to accept these flaws....why?? Answer because they simply do not realise they are missing :-)

@BOFH_UK: quote: 'MMS? All iPhones can do that as of today with the 3.0 update (assuming carrier support of course).

Is quite funny, are you saying this with a serious face or being sarcastic??? - woo hoo Apple have let you send MMS and even cut & paste!! You must be so proud to own such cutting edge tech :)

I think poor oliver thinks most people are like him, he is so wrong.

sure wm6 will let you do much more then the iphone, many of my mw phones did but it usually involved mincin about, go back and forth through pages of setting using a clunky old UI, in the end I couldnt be bothered using many of the features of wm because it was such a crappy experience to endevor!

Steve Jobs is your lord and master Levett!

Give yourself to him!

@Ed
1. I was studying for exams but everyone's allowed a break!

2.
Any sports fan knows that some events have to be seen live. It was history in the making.

3/4
The library does have WiFi but only for students and I finished uni a while back. With the tonne of books I have to carry to the library lugging a laptop as well is not an option. Not to mention that the reason I go to the library is because I can't be trusted to study at home due to the lure of the internet!!! Bringing a laptop would be asking to fail!

5.
Not sure. I was watching the live feed on the sport homepage. Think it requires flash and the iPhone won't work although I'm not sure about that. In my case it was more the lack of WiFi which meant it wouldn't have worked on an iPhone.

I totally get your points and the iPhone is awesome at what it does and a much better phone for 90% of people and 100% of non geeks. I'd never recommend WinMo to a mate because I know that they'd probably hate it. It definitely isn't for most people. These are just the reasons that stop me from going iPhone. I think for someone like myself Android is much more interesting. I'm just waiting a bit to see how it develops before I dive in.

For goodness sake people! There is not a 'better' phone between the Iphone and this - they're just different. Why all the bickering?

Both are amazing phones, and anyone who says either one is rubbish or overall inferior is just wrong.

Yes, for certain things each one will be have advantages over the other. Let's just look at it objectively, see what each phone can do and people can make their minds up about which will suit their needs.

For me, the hardware keyboard is a must, I like a high-res screen, and I like customising things and tinkering even when things aren't broken, so Touch Pro2 is the device for me. Someone else will love playing games, buying songs on Itunes, & wouldn't use the keyboard so will go for the Iphone.

To Gordons points, where he said "Once you've used a (let's call them) 'simple smartphone' like the iPhone that is focussed on making it very easy to use a few basic extras above that of a normal phone, you soon realise that you don't miss the extra (difficult to use) stuff on the 'smart smartphones'."

Hmmmmm
1) How easy is it to make and SMS or MMS on the iphone?
2) How long did it take them to include video capture?
3) If you dont want anything out of your phone, that is fine. Why must a phone designed to provide more be penalised for doing more?
4) "Capacitive"? Is this STILL coming up? This is Apple maketing hoodoo. All deveices have technology choices. Quite often multiple approaches. What matter is whether the technoogy is good enough for the application. I mean when Apple ipods couldnt play lossless files - and in fact they still refuse to play FLAC for example - did you dock the ipod points for not playing lossless files? No. Although the real reason you did this is that you are a fanboy, it would still be a correct decision because MP3 is good enough for the job. So spare us the "capacitive" nonsense please. Its fanboy stuff.

There is a totalitarian mentality at work here that is scary, particularly when espoused by a supposedly independet journalist, who should be focused on consumer choice.

@Ed Churchward - sorry if this sounds dumb, but when you use a ROM upgrade, does it upgrade WM as well. I quite like the look of one of "PROven ROM 4.3 WM6.5 21234" by qsqa but I see its for WM6.6. My device is WM 6.1. Thanks

@PaulW 99% of the new roms use 6.5, not 6.1. It totally flashes the device, it will wipe the OS and all the data on the phone. Take a look at the Energy 3.0 rom (The Standard one), it is better than the Proven one. Works straight out the box as it were. Just Read the Wiki. If your phone is currently 6.1 it will be wiped and whatever you flash over the top will be your new OS, in this case 6.5

@Ed Churchward - All done & dusted Ed. Have now got Energy 3.0 rom running! What a difference it makes - its a new phone. Thanks very much for your help - much appreciated - you have introduced me to a "new world"! LOL"

@PaulW - Really glad it worked out for you. Amazing what a differance it makes, I don't understand why the phones are not released like this anyway. You might want to try a few more Radio's as well, can improve reception and battery quite some bit.

Frankly i find the response to those putting the WM case here (atari, oliver etc), from both other users and staff, a little unfair.

People seem to approach these discussions with the assumption that the creation of good software is some mysterious and elusive black art. This is not the case. The difference between apple and microsoft is not one of capability to create decent software products, but rather one of marketting posture. Flexibility in software comes at the expense of ease of use; the more generic you make a software tool, the more choices the user has to make, and the more complex the interface becomes. Say for example i design a simple image editting program. At first, i assume users will only ever want to save their files in bitmap format, in the same directory as the source image. As a result, my "save" dialog is very simple: just a single text entry component. But if i extend that functionality to allow users to select a destination folder, different file types (and therefore strengths of compression), etc, it must become more complex. A trivial example, but it makes the point.

So, if i make certain assumptions about what the user wants to do with my software and constrain them accordingly, the software requires a simpler user interface. In many cases, this approach serves the mass-market well - most users are not "experts" and are well served by an interface of reduced complexity. That's fine. In the iPhone, this has been apple's stance.

However, what this approach doesn't justify is apple's proprietary software architecture. Ironically, if microsoft did something similar, we'd all be up-in-arms. This is why it's the anti-WM camp who are approaching this discussion with bias, NOT the pro-WM camp. I remember a short while ago a friend of mine who works in music production, was in the market for a new laptop, and was comparing windows vs mac. In the end, he went mac. Part of what convinced him, was a recent decision by apple to ship the latest version of their OS with a piece of music production software (can't remember the details) bundled in. Prior to this decision, it was an optional extra costing several hundred pounds. Now, presumably, there are third party developers out there writing competing "music production" products, who have just been monumentally undercut. Microsoft made a similar decision many years ago to ship IE with windows, and came under fire in a big way (wasn't it even a major factor in the anti-trust cases to break microsoft up?), and yet apple can get away with precisely the same thing and with a FAR MORE VALUABLE software product than an internet browser. Now this is partly because they have a much smaller market share (so perhaps there aren't so many third party developers out there competing with them in the music production software business), and partly because people are simply inclined to view apple collectively as some benevolent altruist. In other words, if they're giving software away, it's to enrich the end-user experience rather than to steal market share and squeeze competitors out of buisness. This is naive and nonsensical.

Similarly, people are inclined to assume that apple have made the iPhone software platform proprietary in order to ensure stability, or to control quality. The more third party bits of hardware and software there are floating around out there, and the more "open" the OS, the less stable it will ultimately be. Why? Because the developers have a limited capacity to simulate the real world applications of their platform. Thus, it comes down to a compromise between cost and stability. However, the truth is that one need not constrain third party developers to the extent apple has chosen to in order to improve stability. My WM phone has crashed once in 18 months, for example, and i use a lot of third party apps (spb soft today plugins etc). The truth is likely more pragmatic - it's about apple's ability to control the market in order to make as much money as possible.

My other gripe with the iPhone, is the initial cost vs hardware features. At release, an iPhone on contract would set you back £200 iirc. My Tytn II was 50 quid on orange as an upgrade. This is laughable considering the iPhone didn't even support 3G. Apple are overcharging based on their brand, to a segment of the market which doesn't really understand why they're getting ripped off.

All of that asside, it is an exercise in futility to compare a decent WM phone to the iphone anyway. As has already been desmonstrated, the iphone is outmatched in both hardware features and software flexibility. In fact, the only counter arguments the pro-iPhone people have been able to offer in response to technical limitations posted by people like Oliver and Atari, are things like "well we've just got that" or "it's coming soon." That's not competing; it's catching up. I'm more than prepared to accept that for the majority of iphone customers these issues are moot. However, the fact that it might suit it's demographic just as well as a good WM phone, does not undermine the objective facts which make said "good WM phone" a more sophisticated and flexible bit of kit. And finally, not even that would really serve as a criticism of the iPhone.....IF it wasn't priced in such a way that it's punching above its weight.

Two questions
Why is the video review more negative than the printed review for this product? According to the latter the keyboard is brilliant and easier to type on than some netbooks. According to the former the keyboard has serious problems - such as poor layout - that make it difficult to use. n b egtter

[FOR MODERATOR: Please ignore previous 2 comments sent in error (I am typing on a netbook!). My comment follows:]
Two questions regarding this product:
1) Why is the video review so much more negative than the printed version. For example, the latter says the keyboard is brilliant and the typing experience is superior to some netbook keyboards, whilst the former sees the keyboard as having serious drawbacks - such as poor layout - which make it difficult to use.
2) Clearly this product is in competition with the Nokia N97, which is now on sale. When can we expect a review of the Nokia?

I read a lot of reviews of this phone, but none really covered actually using the phone for real. Its looks, video playback capability, and the inevitable iPhone comparisons are all of little use to me if the phone is not actually capable of sending and receiving emails, making calls, and providing a decent web browsing interface. Unlike many who have reviewed this phone, I am new to smartphones. I have avoided them for a long time, as none have really matched up to my requirements. The Touch Pro2 appeared as though it might just be the phone for me. So I got one. I have been quite disappointed. My primary objections are the way Outlook Mobile deals with IMAP. Not everyone has access to Exchange server. Not everyone wants Exchange server. IMAP, while not perfect, is a good all-round email protocol, and can do what I want it to do: keep my email accounts synchronized between multiple clients, and allow almost instant 'push' style access to my almost 3,000 emails. It has taken me a week of messing around with the Touch Pro2 to get all my emails loaded. I downloaded a trial version of ProfiMail, and this performed the task in under 60 seconds. Outlook Mobile on the Touch Pro2 just kept crashing, hanging, and freezing. A simple send/receive takes well over 5 minutes. It's almost instant with ProfiMail. For the most part of the send/receive process, the phone appears to be doing very little. The CPU usage is low, and the network traffic stops for most of the time it is connected. I scanned the IMAP network packets, and, via telnet, performed exactly the same commands with no problem. I'm guessing that the majority of the time is taken up with the Outlook Mobile trying to index its existing emails, to work out what's new and what's deleted. Again, ProfiMail manages this almost instantly. If you want a phone capable of handling a reasonably large number of emails via IMAP, this is not the one. Unless you are prepared to pay extra for an email client that does not integrate with the calendar or contacts, and provides a completely different interface. I've done a full review of my experiences with the phone here: http://mikemanreviews.blogspot.com/