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Thanks. Is it possible for a 3D TV to offer passive and active 3D technologies in the same set? E.g. default is active shutter 3D, but you can choose passive 3D whenever you have friends round to watch a football match and don't care so much about the full HD quality?Also, can you clarify whether 3D blu ray players all work with both active and passive sets? I'm about to buy a blu ray player (for a non 3D tv), and won't bother paying for 3D unless I can be sure it will work with passive and active in future, as it seems passive is the way to go for many situations.
@Goodmane: Yes, it is perfectly possible, though would add further to the cost. All 3D blu-ray players will work with both tech.
Having read this review of the LG 47LD950, I spotted some comments that I think are rather misleading to potential buyers of this 3D TV. For Bluray playback, the reviewer states: "Basically, it just doesn’t work, for two pretty serious reasons. First and worst, the passive system – at least as employed by the 47LD950 – seems to lose something substantial in depth terms during the translation from alternating 1,920 x 1,080 frames to the lower resolution side-by-side passive approach." This statement is simply wrong - any 3D TV, using either active or passive technology, displays the same left and right views per frame, creating exactly the same depth perception in the viewer's brain. also, the 47LD950 does not convert from alternating frames to side-by-side when playing 3D Blurays - it converts a frame-packed image pair to a single interlaced view. The reviewer is confusing the Bluray frame-packed format with the Sky 3D format, which is side-by-side, half resolution. It is also worth mentioning here that the Sky 3D broadcasts (and any future Virgin 3D broadcasts) will look exactly the same on either a passive or an active 3D TV - an active 3D TV will not be able to "put back" the lost resolution. The reviewer goes on to say: "This problem presents itself as an out-of-focus look to background material while foreground objects look OK – a discrepancy that quickly finds our eyes becoming tired as they keep trying to correct a problem that actually can’t be corrected. Figuring the problem might be resolved by switching the set’s Left/Right 3D setting to right/left, all we succeeded in doing was making the foreground go out of focus while the background suddenly became sharp!" The Left/Right button reverses the left and right views and does not make an out-of-focus background any sharper by putting it in the foreground. (There is no standard in stereoscopic video for which view comes first, so if the background is in the foreground, and vice versa, this button corrects the problem.) If the background is out of focus, it is meant to be that way in order to draw the viewer's attention to the foreground action. Finally, the reviewer states: "To make matters worse, the 47LD950’s screen is comfortably big enough to reveal a marked reduction in 3D Blu-ray picture resolution versus all the active shutter, full HD 3D TVs out there." It is true that "half-resolution-to-each-eye" passive 3D looks softer than active 3D, but in fact the brain is receiving all the detail in the 1080p view, just divided between both eyes. Taking into account other factors, like the argument that a viewer's stronger eye takes in detail information and the weaker eye provides depth cues, it is often stated that passive 3D looks about 2/3 the resolution of active 3D (the many benefits of passive 3D far outnumber this slight drawback). I felt it was important to point out these errors to give the LD950 a fighting chance of competing with all the active shutter-glass 3D TVs out there!
Ta!Interesting comments re: passive tv quality. Perhaps on a smaller screen -say a future 36" or 40" OLED- passive would be super! But in that case I'm hoping it has freeview HD, and active 3D to boot! See you in 2014 perhaps...
Looks to me like tis is all about active shutter 3D vs. "passive" (or fake) 2D converted to "3D".It either is or it isn't.....I'm waiting for REAL passive 3D, like the kind you now see in the theaters, with NON electronic glasses.....it's only a matter of time. You'll just slide those non-electronic, large sunglass-type polaroid lenses onto your nose and watch full 3D in it's much cheaper, non-electronic glory! I'm waiting for THAT, and to Hell with all this early generation and far too complicated and expensive CRAP.SUCKERS!!!!!!
Passive 3D is not "fake" - the 47LD950 has no 2D to 3D conversion feature, it displays proper 3D. It uses the same cheap glasses that you can bring home from the cinema.
I've been hoping a company would bring passive 3D into the home, even if there were some problems with this set. To be honest though, I would argue that 3D is much more beneficial when watching sport, as is to be on Sky 3d than with films, which seem to just add 3d as a feature, and then add specific scenes to show off their 3d effects. I havent actually had a chance to watch a Sky 3D showing at a pub, but from what I gather it really is impressive in terms of tracking the ball, understanding where crosses will drop etc.I'm not ready to take the 3D plunge yet, but with that in mind I would have to put this set top of my list at the moment. I hope LG (and others?) keep working on the passive tech!
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: I have now thoroughly tested the LG 47LD950 passive 3D TV with the help of the expert staff at Currys/PC World Superstore in Cribbs Causeway, Bristol. Although the display of side-by-side stereoscopic video was excellent and artefact-free, we can confirm that there is a serious issue with the display of frame-packed 3D Blu-ray discs on this TV which is not related to the 3D Blu-ray player being used (the current Sony and Panasonic models were used; the LG BX580 3D Blu-ray player refused to play any discs at all and will most likely have to be recalled or a firmware update carried out). We played “Coraline” and “Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs” and found there to be a problem related to the timing/synchronisation of the interlaced stereoscopic frames. This manifested itself as a motion artefact which made the playback unwatchable. When one scene changed to another, a white flash was seen running from right to left across the screen, almost as if a block of white pixels was inserted between frames. It seems that there is a fault with the processing of the frame-packed pair of images by the TV which may or may not be correctable by a firmware update. I have contacted LG to inform them of our findings. The staff at PC World will also be letting LG know about the problem with the 47LD950 and the BX580. Hopefully LG will be able to sort out the issue with the TV as it is potentially the perfect solution for viewing Sky 3D, future Virgin 3D broadcasts, stereoscopic video files and 3D Bluray films. The 3D display quality is astounding and all of us agreed that it could potentially outclass all the shutter-glass solutions once the problem with 3D Blu-ray playback is solved. Come on LG, you are on to an outright winner if you can put this problem right!
@David Kear: Have you heard of this thing called a paragraph? Experts at Dixons/PC World?The frame packed format has no bearing on this discussion. Passive 3D TVs show each frame at half resolution, it's as simple as that. There are of course semantic discussions about framerates and equivalent resolutions but the fact of the matter is that each eye receives a frame of resolution 960 x 1,080.As for being wrong about the depth perception, from my time viewing all the latest TVs from every manufacturer recently at the IFA trade show I can confirm that passive tech doesn't give quite such a sense of depth as active. As for the motion artefact you saw, I can only assume this was a problem with the set you saw as John evidently didn't notice it, and neither did I notice any such problems when briefly looking at the sets at IFA.
@David Kear: It seems that there is a fault with the processing of the frame-packed pair of images by the TV which may or may not be correctable by a firmware update. I have contacted LG to inform them of our findings.David, my online editor friend says there is an edge motion control setting in picture settings. Did you try that. If I wanted one to play Sky and side by side content off std BluRays would it be worth buying? Thanks.
Ed: No need to be sarcastic! Yes, I have heard of a thing called a paragraph, I just decided to write a long one. The guys at my local PC World certainly know their stuff and were very interested in testing out the TV.Regarding the vertical resolution of passive 3D, I think I am right in saying that all the 1080p detail is there, just divided equally between the two views. Therefore the brain is receiving all the information required to construct the full image. I don't know about the horizontal resolution - I assumed this was half for side-by-side and full for frame-packed.The perceived depth from an interlaced stereoscopic pair of images is exactly the same if the images are displayed sequentially - the TV, active or passive, is displaying the same two views, just in a different way. The parallax between a foreground object and the background will be exactly the same and so the perceived depth will be the same. Some stereoscopic software, e.g. TriDef, allows this to be adjusted by distorting the two images with respect to each other, but no 3D TV has this adjustment, as far as I know.I have now tested two 47LD950 TVs, one in Bristol's and one in Swindon's Currys. Both display the same problem when playing back 3D Blu-rays. It's almost as if the images in each stereoscopic pair are not being processed quickly enough, maybe resulting in a delay between the two interlaced frames. Unless there is a setting change on the TV that can solve the problem, this is a serious issue. However, it may be resolved with a software update. We tried all the TruMotion settings but this made no difference. Philstreather: Thanks for your suggestion - I'll try this next time I am in PC World and report back! The 47LD950 displays Sky 3D and any side-by-side 3D video brilliantly, but you are paying a lot of money just for this. The 47LD920 performs just as well in this regard (this is the pub version and is the same as the 47LD950, just without the HDMI 1.4 3D Bluray support). You could try to track one of these down - there are a few on eBay at the moment for around £1000 or so, so you could save a lot of money. One other option for 3D Bluray playback might be to buy the 47LD920, connect it to a PC using an HDMI to DVI cable, and play 3D Blurays with Power DVD 10 Ultra mark II (which supports 3D Bluray playback) using a USB BD-ROM drive like the Plextor PX-B120U. With the TV set to PC mode this might just work!
Ed: I have reread John's original review on Tech Radar (for which the 47LD950 was mysteriously given 6/10 instead of the 7/10 for the review on this site) and he says:"Adding still further emphasis to this already troublesome phenomenon are some problems handling motion with 3D Blu-rays, as fast moving objects contribute further to the sense of lost clarity."I took this to mean that he had seen exactly the issue in question.
Passive 3D should surely win. I mean customer in store: I want a 3D TVSalesman: Do you want to pay £50 each time for glasses with batteries that need replacing / charging/ are complex so may fail/ won't work with another brand / introduce crosstalk? Customer: Not really?Salesman: Do you want one that works with £1 glasses that are ubiquitous, and work at the cinema and at your mates house, easily relaceable, no charging, lightweight, great quality HD albeit not quite 1080p?Customer: What do you think?I really hope LG sorts out the problems with passive / introduce a higher resolution TV for 1080p passive 3D. More than that, I hope I can get a passive 3D monitor with IPS or VA screen soon.
I've had an interesting email from Inition who are experts in 3D hardware and sell the 47LD950. Apparently the problem with synchronisation of frames when watching a 3D Blu-ray is a known issue and LG are working on a remedy (probably a software patch or firmware update, maybe downloadable from their website and installable via a USB stick directly into the TV). The problem is also present in the CF3D, LG’s passive 3D projector. There is a simple solution in the meantime - turn off Trumotion, which otherwise causes a frame rate conversion that does not work with 3D content, and then turn 3D on and off to sync the footage correctly. I will go to PC World soon to confirm that this works. If it does, it looks like this reviewer based his poor opinion of the TV's 3D Blu-ray performance on this quirk, which it seems can be easily remedied. I have informed Which Magazine about this, who were very grateful for the information, and hopefully they will take this into account when they review the TV in full. Like Goodmane above, I think passive 3D will win out in the end (I can't wait to try out LG's passive 3D OLED TVs!).
As a follow-up to my previous comments, interested buyers of this TV may like to know that 3D bluray playback on this TV works perfectly via a computer (I use an HP HPE-350uk desktop with updated GeForce graphics card software) and PowerDVD 10 Ultra MkII software. The motion artefacts and flashing (also reported by the recent "Which" review) are completely absent and the 3D picture is sharp and bright, rivalling any shutter-glasses 3D TV. A bit of an expensive way of getting a good result, but worth considering if you also want a new PC!
I made a breakthrough discovery today which makes me believe strongly that this review, along with several others on the Web, are totally wrong about the LG 47LD950's 3D Bluray performance. I had witnessed the display problems a couple of months ago when playing a 3D Bluray on the BX580 up at my local PC World store. However, Shannon Dowsing at Inition told me via email that the problem is trivial, and will be fixed soon by a firmware update. In the meantime, it is easy to put right - just turn off TruMotion, which applies some sort of frame rate conversion which messes up the 3D, toggle 3D off and on from the remote and, voila, the left and right frames are resynchronized perfectly! I tried this today with my PS3 and she is absolutely right - a perfect 3D picture resulted! If you are thinking of buying this TV with a particular 3D bluray player, I would advise trying this fix out in the shop first to make absolutely sure it works with your chosen combo, but it should work no matter what player is used.
A quick first impression from yesterday at Tech Guys. Without glasses the alternate line structures on image edges was clearly visible. With glasses the 3D effect although very good, was still slightly marred by the lines and decrease in resolution at a 5 foot distance. Further away it was excellent and the 3D did seem to jump out of the screen at me!On comparison with an active glasses Samsung model the 3D effect was just as good, if not slighter brighter, but with a slight decrease in resolution due to each eye only seeing half the vertical definition. Both TVs with Sky side by side format of course only gave half the horizontal definition per eye. So the LG in theory only shows 25% of full HD definition per eye. I did not check Blue Ray performance but I accept the previous comments and hope that an upgrade will overcome the problem. My quick conclusion was that I would buy it, even if only for watching Sky 3D, if my present Philips 42" was more than 11 months old!
I own one of these and have to say it pretty much blows the active systems out of the water. That's based on a previously owned Samsung PS50C7000 which at the time I actually thought provided quite impressive 3D capabilities. However, once compared the LG is basically in a completely different league and I'd argue that any active system is going to be extremely hard put to match it. As for the half resolution argument then that really doesn't seem to hold much water as every owner I've spoken to is unable to see the supposed drop in resolution. If you get stupidly close to the TV then it's true you can perceive the line structure (doesn't apply to 2D viewing) but you aren't exactly going to see very good 3D if you get that close anyway.In fact, 3D image quality is so good that some shots (especially those that lay in front of the TV screen) appear to contain more detail than when viewed by their active shutter counterparts. This can't really be the case, of course, but I think it must be due to the brain's response to almost total lack of cross-talk which all active systems seem to suffer from. As many have now reported, this makes the whole 3D experience so much more rewarding and relaxing as it‘s possible to peruse the image for fine detail but without suffering eye-strain. I’ve found this to be particularly the case with nature 3D films in which a large amount of information is presented.That’s not to say the TV is perfect though. Black levels whilst better than some sets (the Samsung in my case) are still someway short of perfection.For anyone after very high quality and reliable 3D family viewing then these sets offer astonishingly good value at current prices.
ARGO: Thank you! At last, comments from someone who actually owns one of these sets! I have managed to see a couple in action and compared directly to the active 3D sets the resolution did look lower but I suspect on its own it will be adequately detailed.I take on board other comments about framing issues and further comments on how to remedy this, hopefully it won't be an issue.I have ordered one and am really looking forward to trying out the 3D with my PS3 and WipeOut HD as I believe this will play in 3D! And I see TRON is out on 3D Bluray too!!The best thing is the price... yo can get this TV for as little as £600 now so even if it had no 3D it is still a great price for a 47" full HD TV, the 3D is a bonus AND you can get extra glasses from the £1 shop!!!Roll on next week when it arrives!!! :-)
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